Docutech Community
DOCUTECH => DOCUTECH => Topic started by: Midwest Danny on October 10, 2007, 02:10:15 AM
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Got this DocuTech with a 08-153 problem. Jams every 3000 prints. An unwrinkled piece of paper under the registration sensor.
NOW, if I prop open the front door, and cheat the interlock it won't jam at all.
Something overheating??
I have done the following.
New Lift Solinoids, no help
New Registration Sensor, no help
New Cross Roll Assy, no help
New Cross Roll sensor, no help
New PHN DIO #2, no help
New Registration Servo pwb, No help
Customer is currently running the Doc with the front door open.
ANY IDEAS??
Midwest Danny :oops:
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Teh cross roll sensor be sittin down too low man or teh cross roll reflector is scratched. Jack the sensor up a couple mm's. Scratched reg guide possible. Yup :mrgreen:
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try increasing the pressure on the pre reg transport - are the orange rollers worn or gone soft underneath?
is it only from 1 specific tray or all trays , maybe only from the duplex transport - do the ski's lift off cleanly.
best of luck.
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This problem only happens in SIMPLEX ( have never seen any paper on vertical transport ) and from any paper tray, BUT remember, the machine won't jam if the front doors are open.
Midwest Danny
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Something probably too stupid to mention...Front door interlock??
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In the past the friend of mine had a similar problem , and related me that if the engine runned without the rear covers , no jams was declared and replaced the cross rooll motor solved the problem.
Try to change the assembly with other machine.
jhota
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Hi JHOTA,
I changed the cross roll Assy with another machine and it did not help.
I was wondering if the tray 3 transport sensor would cause this problem.
I think the paper is timed from tray 3 transport sensor to the reg transport sensor,
I might relace that just for grinns.
Midwest DAnny
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Door interlock switch?
Check paper tray timing and leave it running to see if it starts to drift off. If so, possibly reg servo motor getting hot?
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I would try that Door Interlock...
I would open the door and stick a cheater in the door interlock instead of the service interlock and see if it does it. That would tell you if its the interlock, If it does it now with the door open and the door interlock being used then thats the problem.
At least someone else is finally getting a wierd problem =) I was tired of being the only one :)
FB2
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Hi
My other dumb idea , i had only twice time the MOT 1217 PL 7- B 12- (4), was dificult to see the belts slowly, the shaft of motor was turn slowly some times with jams in the area.
jhota
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All godd ideas,
I usually just cheat the regular door interlock. Not the service interlock.....I will try that.
I went in today and replaced the tray 3 transport sensor with another one ( not a new one).
I also went into paper feed timing, 08-153....it was way off, I adjusted it to 0.
I did not have enough time to stick around for 3000 prints. I ran probally 1000 and no 08-153.
Time will tell.
Midwest Danny
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Just called my customer , night shift, and he said that he has had 3 08-153 with the door closed.
He opened the door and cheated the door interlock and he has had none.
So, anything I have done has not helped.
Gotta be something heating up. If it was an interlock sw, just cheating it or door closed would be the same, interlock closed by door or cheater.
Midwest Danny
Any ideas????? :|
I also had my customer unplug the left lift Sol and run the machine and he said it ran fine, so that rules out overheated left lift sol.
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Sounds like an optical sensor is being affected by light with the door open. I once heard of a 10-101 that was fixed by replacing the prefuser sensor. It also only happened with the door closed.
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I'm wondering if it could be the Registration Transport servo motor heating up causing the 08-153 ?
Any thoughts?
Midwest Danny
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Danny,
I like the sound of Wilbur's suggestion... Try checking your collector voltages at the dio with the door open and closed. I've had a top tray sensor in the past not want to reset when taking out the prints yet I could reset it by pointing my flashlight at it. Photons are funny!
I really doubt the difference in heat would affect the motor.
nobigx
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When the customer is cheating the interlock...is the door propped open or is the door swinging to the almost closed position?
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I was in today and replaced the right door interlock sw with a brand new one and no help.
After about 3000 copies, 08-153.
Midwest Danny :|
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Well, just for my own amusement, I changed the Registration Servo motor and the pinch rolls on top of the servo rolls and shut the door and ran about 3000 prints and got an 08-153..
Boo hoo :|
Midwest Danny
Milo, The front door is proped open, not hitting or bouncing the interlock sw.
I don't understand the light and optical sensor angle, It runs good with the door open.
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I guess you have run the timing graph for 08-153 and in my pass I have try to stall the tray 3 belts. I run it in DC 30, with the paper tray out, I place my hands on the belts and see if I can stop it. A good clutch will not stop.
I have also ran the adj for the timing and adj that too. I think I read that you did that.
Did you remove the reg guide and check for burrs on there? I also make sure my cross roll has the e-rings on there and then bias the cross roll against the e-ring. You can losen the cross assy and try bias the right end toward you and the left end of it toward the IB side. Or Bias the whole thing toward the IB. Have you run your hand inside on the reg xport and try to feel any burrs.
I had one time when the take away roll melt and there was a piece sticking to the top part of the reg xport. When I lifted the xport up I did not see it. It was sticking to the top part.
Is that little transistion plate between the processor and finisher sitting correctly?
I read you disconnect the left sol, you will get a slight delection about 6" on the paper. If the lead edge of the paper hits the lift sol sensor. That is the time the sol should be lifting up. If not that is where you get a delection on that spot where the sol lifted off. Maybe by the time you get there it is cool down. If it does not lift also, it may slow it down to the reg enough.
And you did try another reg sensor and how is those plastic finger on the reg xport to the baffle.
Try removing the cross roll sensor and use a razor blade and remove the red lens, and try it.
Good Luck
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K6135,
Some good tips.
I will try the tray 3 transport belts, that could be a real possibility.
BUT,the fact remains that this machine runs fine with the right front door open.
Too weird.
Midwest Danny
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Well, I was in today at the 08-153 machine and changed the Tray 3 Transport Belts, They were pretty slick.
Made no diffrence...in about 3000 prints with the front door closed, 08-153.
If you run out of tray 1 or 2 you get the same code, 08-152, etc.
I think the next thing I will do is change out the PHN main drive motor, above the Registration Transport.
I felt it today while running and it was really hot.
This maching runs fine with the front door open.
Midwest Danny :|
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Could you check where the right door interlock sw wire is not rubbing on the pully from the top xport. It is a shot in the dark. Try also switching the interlock to the finisher to see if that could be it? Interlock does have a 24 vdc tie in and also a 5 vdc sense voltage.
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This is weird.....The customer says that they can run Duplex 110 lb cover stock all day long and no jams, but the minute you put 20 lb paper in the Docutech, it runs about 3000 pages and does an 08-153.
Any ideas.....??
:cry:
Midwest Danny
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Fang Plate
Pinch roller @ bottom of tray3 vert, not seating properly or angled.
The whole "works with the doors open" still does not make sence with regards to what you have already done.
cheating the door interlock instead of the service interlock eliminates any 5v problems.
also: is the upper baffle (to the right of reg xport) grounded (noise throwing off the reg sensor)
Just some more things to try.
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Hi Don,
I thought this whole 08-153 thing was something with the tray 3 vertical transport, so I took the entire thing apart, new belts, sensor, rollers, etc. No help..
The top baffle in front of tray 3 transport is grounded.
It's been a mystery to me for about 6 weeks.
Midwest Danny
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When it does happen, would the lead edge corner OB be crunch a little. Have you try a a different reg edge. And it is not happening in duplex? I know this is getting long on the forum. Hard to go back and double check what has been done?
Does the operator leave the jam for you when it happens? Does the plastic strip that leads up to the baffle look ok?
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Danny,
Check to see if your tray 3 blower o-ring is on the correct pulley step. I have seen in the past that if it is on the 50hz or high altitude(?) location it will cause all sorts of timing issues. The school of thought that more air is better does not apply here. This open door thing might have something to do with air flow and the blower. Good Luck.
nobigx
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Hi KT and NOBIGX,
When it jams, and I have seen plenty of them, there is NO DAMAGE whatsoever to the sheet of paper.
There will be a sheet of paper about an inch from the registration transport sensor and a piece of paper on the tray 3 transport sensor. I think the blower is on 50 Hz, I will change it when I go in next. Good idea.
Of course, I rebuilt tray 3 transport assay, new switch, belts rollers, etc. That was no help When I say only happens in simplex, what I really mean is, the customer is running DUPLEX and when the jam occurs, there is no paper coming down the vertical transport, the paper is on the first side, there will be 2 sheets on the top transport that have been duplexed.
Very silly problem.
Midwest Danny
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IS YOUR FUSER CAVITY FAN CLEAN?
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Replace the tray 3 sensor
im running with my door open waithing for a prefuser sensor
if u have changed the other sensors the only other sensor that would be cooled by the door being open is the lower tray 3 skies sensor
Just a thought
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The fuser fan is clean and I am assuming you mean the tray 3 feed sensor, been changed.
Now, this is wierd....I went in today and they have been running for the past week with the door closed and no jams. The weather has turned cold here in Southern Ohio and the room is colder than normal.
What the heck is heating up otherwise??
Midwest Danny
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Danny,
I'm going to disregard the open door scenario. It might be just sending us on a tangent. I have not seen whether or not you have checked your tray three feed motor. This motor can and does separate at the shaft and the windings causing intermittant drive. Depending on how bad it is it can be a real pain to troubleshoot. I've epoxied them in the field as a temporary fix. Is your drag brake in good condition?
nobigx
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Hi Nobigx,
Those are excellent suggestions.
No, I have not checked the Tray 3 motor or the drag brake.
The customer won't let me touch the machine now that it's running so well.
The next time they have the 08-153 problem, I'm putting in a diffrent tray 3 motor and a drag brake.
Who knows when the problem will reappear?
Probally when it gets hot out next.
Thanks a lot NOBIGX for the great ideas.
Midwest Danny
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UPDATE on the 08-153 problem....This problem did not happen all WINTER and has raised it's ugly head when the weather started to get warm outside.
This is the current situation on the 08-153 thing.
ONLY happens on duplex, you can run single sidded all day long and runs fine.
Seems to run a tiny bit better with the front door open and a fan blowing on the componets.
Anyone have anysugguestions??
I am TOTALLY out of ideas.....All PWB's have been swapped out, PHN CORE, DIO's, Registration Servo PWB, etc.
Midwest Danny :|
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Hi Midwest Danny
With your last information that happen on DUPLEX and I tried to find the some mention about CLUTCH OF VERTICAL TRANSPORT and nothing, maybe replace or clean the clutch could be work. I never replaced this part but...
good luck
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Jahota,
That is a great idea, I will put in a NEW vertical transport clutch the next time I am in. GOOD IDEA.
Midwest Danny
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Went in today and put in a good, not new, vertical transport clutch, put new vertical belts on the vetical transport and new teflon tape under the belts,I set the Doc U Tech for about 800 copies in DC-106 and after 200 duplex copies, guess what.....08-153,, AAHHAAHHHAA, I could have screamed !!!
Cleared the jam, ran another 150 duplex, 08-153, I guess it's not the vertical transport Clutch, good Idea Jahota, but no cigar on this one.
Any ideas guys??
Midwest Danny :|
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Had a 4135 that had a similar problem in duplex only and it turned out to be the 3 red registration rollers just before the cross rolls.Never did understand why just in duplex and never in simplex but changing them corrected the problem.
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Hi Butchiee,
Thanks for the tip, I just can't figure out where the 3 RED REGISTRATION rollers would be on a DocUTech.
Please help.
If I can find them, I will change them.
Thanks
Midwest Danny
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I may have missed this but have you tried the 5v side of the interlock? Maybe the DIO board?
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On my 6180 they where in the interposer. After paper is pulled out of a tray it has to be registred so somewhere after tray 3 their should be something to do that.Don't have my books at home so I can't be more specific.
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Hi JBS, Yes, all PHN circuit boards have been wholesale replaced, including the Regestration Servo PWB.
Butchee, I think that after paper is fed from tray 3 on this DocuTech, it then goes to the tray 3 transport and then directly to the Cross Roll assembly, whick of course is on the registration transport.
And all of the registration transport stuff has been replaced, including the registration transport motor, cross roll assy, all rollers and sensors.
I am at my wits end, this customer can only run about 200 duplex copies between 08-153 codes..
Midwest Danny
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Hi Midwest Danny
I am little confuse,
The P 08 153 indicates that the LE from tray 3 ok,
- If work with tray 1,2 and 3 SIMPLE, no fault ,
- If work with tray 1 and 2 DUPLEX, the jam with P 08 152
- If work with tray 3 DUPLEX, the jam with P 08 153 , I am right?
Question - The print under the sensor on time by jam is the FIRST SIDE or
DUPLEX
JHOTA
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Hi Jahota,
I am confused also.....the 08-153 says that the lead edge was late from tray 3 to the Reg Sensor...although everything works fine in SIMPLES mode...
When you DUPLEX I get the 08-153 from tray 3 and the other codes, can't remember what they are from trays 1 and 2, duples only.
The 2 papers when I get a 08-153, are single sided on the registration transport, 2 papers ( single sided, which does not make sense) on the top transport and one sheet on the tray 3 transport, which of course is blank
Try to figure that out??????
Midwest Danny
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Have you checked your vertical transport sensor? Maybe the wires are getting pinched under the cover in front of the LVPS. Maybe when the front door is closed is putting pressure on that cover and pinching the wires. Just a suggestion. It looks like you've almost made a new Doc with all the work you've done.
Mike
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Hi PrintMike,
Thanks for the reply....Yes, I can guarantee you the vertical Tranport Switch/sensor is working and the wires are hanging out in mid air not touching anything, Just rebuilt that too, new belts, teflon tape and checked the sensor.
Midwest Danny
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Hi again Midwest
Ok Now is better,
But if possible make note of the codes on DC that happen in the same time. We knows that if the SINGLE works fine , all common components work fine too and when set by DUPLEX , the sheet will be change the way by fingers . When stop by fault we find a paper on the tray 3, reg sensor, get in the fuser, on top transport , get in the tray DUPLEX, on exit sensor of tray DUPLEX OK. If the P 08 153 are primary code, we have to concern that is the cause, but , maybe, who knows the others codes could be show the different cause to think. Maybe the DUPLEX finger sol stop to work suddenly. I am longer but.....
JHOTA
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38k2189 :mrgreen:
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Hi Docuteck,
What is a 38K2189?
Anyway, You won't believe this at all....I did't..
Just for giggles, replaced the VERTICAL TRANSPORT SWITCH and the machine is now on running 13,000 copies duplex, would not run 200 duplex before.
That switch/sensor was not new but worked in diagnostics.
Who knows, we will see, but at the moment, the machine is running fine with no jams anywhere with the front door closed.
Amazing....
Midwest Danny
:lol:
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Hope it's finally fixed. I always hated those problems that just won't go away and it always turns into something simple that fixes it.
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Thanks to all who had input, that is what makes this forum such a great tool.
Midwest Danny